[#1] Identity and Women’s Transformations in Oman with Saeeda Khater

SAEEDA KHATER: Women in our society also carried arms.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: That's true. Indeed.

SAEEDA KHATER: She carried arms to defend her home. And she went to the field, and she went to the factory and she went elsewhere, taking on new roles. The Omani household did not collapse or fall apart. Why? Because it consistently had a woman, not just a female.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: At that time, from a cultural perspective, in the Arab region, there was in the Middle east in general, a crisis. It was a crisis. Crisis. And the Islamists.

SAEEDA KHATER: That's right.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: So, the discourse was extremely conservative and fiercely protective of its conservatism.

SAEEDA KHATER: There was a woman, her husband passed away, you, see? I mean, from all social classes. Her husband was a fisherman. This husband passed away. Okay, should she go to perhaps beg a man for something? So and so. And the man. There are many greedy people and there are, I mean, a tax she has to pay. She took her husband's boat, she went out to sea with it, she caught the fish herself, and she sold the fish herself in the market. This is the.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: This is now, nowadays, not today.

SAEEDA KHATER: I mean, less than, less than 15 years ago, 10 years ago. We have become a society that is negative.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: We just receive, okay, where are the means of immunity, cultural and intellectual immunity? I mean, where are the roles of intellectuals? Absent. But why?

SAEEDA KHATER: I'll tell you why. I mean, because the intellectual says one thing and does something else.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Welcome to Metamorphosis with Hamad Al Ghaithi, the podcast that explores the transformations that shape the global landscape and impact the Arab world and the Middle East. In our first episode, we host Dr. Saeeda bint KHATER: Al Farisi, the prominent Omani poet and writer who witnessed the building of the modern state in Oman and contributed to shaping the Omani cultural scene. Together we will discuss the transformations that Oman has witnessed since the 1970s, the changing status of women, and the impact of ideas and cross border identities on the Gulf states. And we will try to anticipate what the future holds for us. Join us for this transparent conversation. Dr. Saida, greetings.

SAEEDA KHATER: Thank you.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: You were born in 1976 in the city of Soar. Then you studied in Kuwait. In 1970, Sultan Qabus began his rule in Oman. Oil started to flow. Institutions were established as the first building blocks of the modern state and society in Oman. What changed? What was it like before the 70s and what continued after the 70s?

SAEEDA KHATER: What changed? That's a very big question. Because the changes were truly significant and substantial. And these changes, now we are reaping its fruits and flowers. Praise be to God. A lot has changed. And if we follow up, if we Want to know what has changed? We need to trace the speeches of His Majesty Sultan Qabus. May God have mercy on him. These important speeches clearly outline the significant changes in the overall situation in this country. The first speech was a call for Omanis to return, especially the educated, to contribute and help in building this nation.

This return, of course, changed a lot. I was one of those who were abroad. I just wanted to come back. Of course, my family stopped me because I was still studying when the change happened. I was in high school. I mean, in the secondary school. Actually, even before secondary school. So, I wasn't supposed to come back. What actually happened is that my dear mother, after a significant period of time, more than 20 years, we were able to see her.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: You were in Kuwait as a family. What was the reason for traveling to Kuwait?

SAEEDA KHATER: The reason, of course, was my father looking for work. He was searching for a job. Like all Omanis, Oman was suffering from the dangerous triad, poverty, ignorance, disease. So, anyone who could, like the saying goes, anyone with wings will fly. That's absolutely right. Especially since we have the vast sea right there, which represents an opening to freedom. So, at first the fathers migrated through the sea, then mothers would follow too. After that, a decree was issued. Years later, a decree was issued stating that women and girls were not allowed to leave Oman.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: That was during the reign of Sultan Said bin Taimur.

SAEEDA KHATER: Yes, during Sultan Said's era. Yes, before Qaboos's reign. Okay. When this decree was issued, I was in the second grade of elementary school. And we had come, look, by chance. We had come to visit Oman. And we were in Soar when this decree was issued. So, what could we do? My father was the type who valued nothing above education. May God have mercy on him. So, he eventually found a way.

We were just little kids at that time. He managed to smuggle us out by lenge boat, secretly. You know, those large boats that they use for smuggling operations. So, he successfully smuggled my sister and me out of the country. Of course, they couldn't do the same for my mother because women are quite bigger than girls. So, she consequently remained completely trapped, while we ourselves were also similarly trapped in Kuwait until things finally and eventually opened.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Up during the era of Sultan Qabus.

SAEEDA KHATER: The era of Sultan Qabus. So, we didn't see her again until 20 years later. I was in my second or first.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Year of high school. What year you returned to Oman? We returned to Oman just for a visit.

SAEEDA KHATER: Not to settle, just to reunite with your mother. Yes, yes. It was so we could see our mother, what I mean is, after that, we didn't come back because we were afraid. I mean, our father didn't bring us again after that. Remarkably, perhaps it was destined. That or my fate. My father, just a year after that visit, passed away.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: God willed so.

SAEEDA KHATER: He died in 63. That means in 62. We were in Oman at the time. May God have mercy on him.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: So, during that period of time, when I migrated to the Kuwait from Soar, of course, the people of Soar, they were open to the sea. So, what happened was migrations from the coast to the Gulf countries like the Emirate, Kuwait, Bahrain as well. And in Al Batana, we have a lot of people.

SAEEDA KHATER: Bahrain, you have a lot of people from Al Bahna there. Yes. The people of Al Batana migrated to Bahrain and to Ad Dammam, Al Qasim and the Emirates. Their situation was actually worse than ours. I mean, at least Oman had some agricultural resources and so on. So, the important thing is the people of Oman and the Emirates all migrated and worked in the same kinds of jobs in Bahrain and Ad Dammam. So, jobs in Ad Dammam, in Bahrain and in Al Azhsa, it went to the people of Al Batina who have expertise in agriculture. Okay. The people of the sea went to Kuwait. I mean, all of us from Sur went to Kuwait. None of us went to Bahrain or Saudi Arabia.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: On another note, my mother was born in Zanzibar. She is from the interior region. So, there was also migration from some areas of the eastern and interior regions to Zanzibar or the Sawahel, as they were called. So, the idea is that a large part of Omani society emigrated before the 70s.

SAEEDA KHATER: Correct.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: And Omani society at that time was fragmented, whether because of migration or because of regional isolation within Oman. So, your experience after Sultan Qaboos took power? Of course, there was a war in Dhofar in southern Oman. And the policy of openness and the call for Omani migrants to return. When you returned to Oman, you saw there was a new government, there was a new direction.

So, all these areas, the people who came back from Zanzibar, the people who returned from the Gulf, some came back from India. From India and Pakistan. Yes. So, these are different worlds. I mean, every family that returns with its own culture, with its own uniqueness. Add to that the uniqueness of Omani society, itself fragmented, scattered people from Al Batinah are different from people from eastern region. So, a collection of identities. Did the melting pot that formed after the 70s and the new institutions, do you think there was a Deliberate effort to build a unified Omani identity. And if there was, to what extent did it succeed?

SAEEDA KHATER: Yes, of course, there was an earnest effort to forge a unified and organized Omani identity. It's as if we, the returnees, were filled with something. I mean, those who hadn't seen Oman for 30 years, or those who hadn't seen it for 20 years, and those who were actually born abroad, everyone was filled with a great enthusiasm to have a homeland where they could enter and leave as they wished, which we couldn't. At least the females couldn't. So, we were eager to give about identity. The truth is it started from the second speech. We will educate our children even under the shade of trees. And indeed, education began under the shade of trees. When the public schools opened, there were children who had already reached fourth grade, so they entered the public schools into formal education. Of course, there was a very strong push to firmly establish this distinct national identity. And in the educational curricula, there is a clear emphasis on the pervasive presence of this particular identity. Then the traditional Omani dress itself, which is quite distinctive.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Exactly.

SAEEDA KHATER: I mean, if I went to Mexico and saw the Omani turban, I would immediately recognize it. Or if I saw the Kuma on your head, I would know this is an Omani. The dishdasha. Their dishdasha is different from the rest of the Gulf.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: That's very true. But also, even the Omani dishdasha is diverse.

SAEEDA KHATER: But most of us wear just one type of dishdasha, which is diverse. That's right. For example, in Sur, it's different. We don't wear it, for example, when we go to work.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Exactly. So even the selection or adoption of a specific type of clothing was a calculated step, a very important step for forging a unified identity.

SAEEDA KHATER: Exactly. And also, the encouragement when we all came. Each person brought their own clothing. I wore Kuwaiti, some people wore Bahraini, others wore different styles. As you said, some people came from Africa, some came in their own traditional dress. Also, women's clothing became more regulated with encouragement to wear traditional dress.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: And what was it?

SAEEDA KHATER: This was the Omani attire, that is the Suri clothing, the Dhofari clothing, the Baluchi clothing, the Lawati clothing, which are all different. Those were also the Muscati dress and Nizwa dress. So. So we returned to the Omani dress, especially, of course, not for work, but especially for occasions and celebrations during the holidays. So, we wore it and wore it with pride. Then came the unified dress for women. When it was adopted, I think you all remember the Dishdasha and the headscarf.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Yes. When did these transformations happen in the symbols of identity like clothing or even the dialect later on. Did these changes you mentioned happen during the reign of Sultan Qabus?

SAEEDA KHATER: Yes. All it is beginning early.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: To forge a unified Omani identity distinct from its surroundings, from other countries?

SAEEDA KHATER: Yes. But the problem remained with the dialect because we acquired it over a long period and our tongues got used to it. So, the problem persisted. If you are a media person, some people started speaking in a Kuwaiti dialect and in others spoke in a Bahraini dialect. And the people's awareness. Look, the Sultan, of course, wanted to emphasize the identity. The people's awareness grew, and they started criticizing anyone, especially media figures, who spoke in a Kuwaiti dialect or spoke in a Bahraini dialect or spoke in any dialect other than Omani, trying as much as possible to speak in the Omani dialect. And there was a focus on the Muscat dialect, honestly.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: So this well organized and concerted effort to shape and influence symbols of identity, do you think that there has been a kind of framing of the Omani identity so that the regional identities, for example, Sur dialect, Al Batina dialect, Dahlia dialect, Sharqiya dialect, the Bedouin dialect, which is of course completely different from the Muscat or a Loster dialect, were these marginalized to create a unified national identity in the beginning?

SAEEDA KHATER: Yes, because when things become diverse, then this is a richness for Oman. The diversity of clothing in Oman is a kind of richness. It cannot be unified. If it's uniform, it ceases to be beautiful. Diversity even extends to women's jewelry. For example, in 1983, we had a festival for the Gulf Cooperation Council countries in Japan. In Japan, all of the Gulf programs, specifically those from Saudi Arabia, Bahrain and Kuwait, all of them didn't bring girls. None of them brought. I mean, it was kind of religious imitation. And they just followed Saudi Arabia. Okay? These. The only ones who brought girls were Oman. We just brought girls. And each and every single day we always wore a different new outfit, different.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: As it expressed the different regions of Oman. Of Oman.

SAEEDA KHATER: Different regions. And every day we were different. We wore different jewelry, and we carried with us real jewelry. The problem back in those days, thank God, they didn't know it was real or we could have been robbed.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: So, you weren't robbed in Japan.

SAEEDA KHATER: In Japan, each girl had real jewelry, different from the others. Folk art. There was also a focus from the state on reviving folk art across different regions because there is richness. We presented various performances. When the Japanese Saw that GCC countries, their dances are the same, their attires are the same, their rhythms are the same. Each one of them had a drum, a tambourine, and performed Khaleeji dance.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: This is all there is and nothing else.

SAEEDA KHATER: They would only come during the Oman program. See the difference yourself. You have a clear identity. That's good. So, they started coming and insisted that Oman must present a show in the morning and evening so they could attend. Otherwise, they would only attend. At the time when Oman was performing, we were supposed to have each country perform once a day. But they made it a condition for us to the point that our boys and girls became exhausted by the last day.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: After five days, many performances.

SAEEDA KHATER: From the sheer number of shows and their insistence, the Japanese audience that omen must perform twice so they could attend.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Excellent. So, all this diversity and richness is because of Oman's geography and the variety of its regions and tribes. This gives it a unique character. But now you, after 50 or 55 years since the establishment of the state in Oman, do you think that the Omani's expression or connection of the Omani citizen to his identity has evolved to the point that. I mean, aside from the symbols, symbols of clothing, dialect and so on, has there become a connection to the state's identity? Meaning that? Has the state developed to the extent that Omanis feels that their country has a distinctive identity they belong to compared to the surrounding region? Has this developed enough? Aside from the symbols, from my point.

SAEEDA KHATER: Of view, the Omani person is deeply connected and very much belongs to the land where he was raised. Perhaps, of course, as a mother, I have passed on. We have passed on the experience of living abroad to our children, to the next generations, and even the little ones, when they ask us nowadays, I mean, even the grandchildren's generation, we also pass on to them how we were, how we left and how things were. And they ask us, why do you go to Kuwait so often? And why are our relatives there? I mean, there is a connection. You can't just cut the ties directly. And certainly, those who came from Africa also have a connection. So, through this historical transmission, the new generation becomes even more rooted in this land, in Omani soil.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Yes, and in its institutions and its heritage.

SAEEDA KHATER: I say in the land itself. In the land.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: You spoke about Omani women and the differences in how they express their identity, depending on the regions, dialects, even jewelry and other things. Let's talk more about Omani women. Dr. Saida, I've read a collection of your poems. Let me read from my poetry. The poem is called when Patience is Bullied On. You said:

She asked for nothing but her knight

Is it too much for her to ask for a man?

And you said in another poem, One Woman is Not Enough. It's a long poem. I'll select some short passages from it.

Women in our east are for offspring,

for tilling, for joy, for beauty.

Men in our east are for war,

for worry, for prison, for the bleeding of pride

One woman is not enough to mend all this misery

Death in our east is a living thing that never dies

It multiplies on its own

It fills the homes, furnishing with our corpses the graves of oblivion

One woman is not enough to bury all this affliction.

I mean, I wouldn't call this a feminist discourse because. But I would say it's a loud protest cry or a cry from a woman. What is this misery? And where does this expressive power come from in an Omani poetess who lived through this critical period, a time of changing concepts, in structure, in institutions, even in the culture of society, which evolved during that period? This loud and angry voice, where does it come from?

SAEEDA KHATER: From the transformations she went through. The entire Arab society went through them, not just Oman. Oman is part of this homeland. Unfortunately, the transformations. Instead of us rising, the hope was that we would rise. We would rise as the number of educated people increased, as the number of intellectuals grew. That is, if there is development. Development would solve most of the problems of these societies. However, instead of steadily rising, we unfortunately began to significantly decline. And as a direct consequence, a powerful protest cry emerged. So, I wrote this poem during the days of the Iraq Iran war. You'll notice that all is about the Arab woman. Indeed, men are about bleeding, of pride, about imprisonment. It's exactly that. If you take the entire poem today and apply it to Gaza, it fits exactly.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: It still expresses the reality of women.

SAEEDA KHATER: In fact, things have gotten worse. The reality of women. On the contrary, we haven't improved. Not in Oman, nor the Gulf, not even the Gulf. Nothing has changed for us. This superficial change, these skyscrapers, towers, streets and cars, this is a loose change. It's just a superficial change. A loose change. It's just a superficial change. I have a huge fortune, but I don't know where to spend it. So, I make this change. But is it a real change? It's not a real change.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: In your poem, One Woman is Not Enough, you spoke about women and men. What is your concept of womanhood and manhood? I mean, what is true manhood in the eyes of the poet Sayyida KHATER:. And what is true womanhood.

SAEEDA KHATER: In the first poem? There is more manhood to ask for a man.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Exactly. There is manhood.

SAEEDA KHATER: There is manhood. She doesn't want the man just as a gender. She wants the very notion of manhood. She wants her night. She wants the night, her night. Is it too much to ask for that? She asks for nothing but her night. This is the concept of manhood. Manhood, in fact, has many requirements for this male to become one. I'm not talking about a mere male, but for this male to become a man in the true sense of the word. I mean, some people, they say, oh, it's a boy, a boy. And there's joy, and I don't know what else. And the ululation starts, all right, this is just, you know, an appearance. Will this male transform from his narrow masculinity into true manhood? Manhood. Look, for example, at Gaza right now, who is dying? Not a single woman goes out to bring a sack of flour on her back. She doesn't go out. The Gazan man does not let her leave her home. She stays at home to protect her children. She protects herself because she is supposed to lean on a back, on a man, not merely a male. She is leaning on a man, and thus he is the noble one who bears the consequences of all that is happening now.

Death, destruction, hunger, everything. And so being a man carries many requirements until he becomes a real man. A woman also has responsibilities. It's not just about being a female. Now there are females who just drag their abaya and makeup, going from one salon to another. Does this particular female truly fulfill all of her important responsibilities? As expected, as a woman, she has not. Let me take a moment to talk about your mother and my own mother. They bore incredibly heavy double burdens, especially during the times when the men of the family migrated. However, the homes were never truly empty of strong and resilient females. They were never without females, without women, without the presence of women. Women in our society also carried arms.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: That's true.

SAEEDA KHATER: Indeed, she carried arms to defend her home. And she went to the field, and she went to the factory, and she went elsewhere, taking on new roles. The Omani household did not collapse or fall apart. Why? Because it consistently had a woman, not just a female.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: I agree with you. And this leads us to a much broader and more comprehensive perspective. I mean, in various social circles, in the Omani social context, the woman is confined to a certain role. Also, in the Western view of the Arab woman, for example, when talking about Oman, they Say that women were oppressed, always at a lower level than men. But, for example, from my own family experience, my grandmother was in Zanzibar. She was responsible for the clove farms. My grandfather used to sell cloves. He was a clove merchant in Zanzibar. She was responsible for the sales, and she was responsible for many things. On the other hand, my grandfather married other women in Zanzibar, but she was the backbone of the household. She raised the children and others as well. And my mother also played a similar role. She raised us. My father was working in Muscat. We were in Sahar. And my grandmother, my father's mother, was responsible for farms that produced lemons in Sahar. And we used to export lemons for long periods of time. So, women, in fact, bore many responsibilities. She was the backbone of the household, the nurturer, the one responsible for feeding the children, for their education and upbringing.

Now, when we look at the bigger picture, moving from the family to the societal context, you always see that there is a certain framework set for women, that women should not do this. It is not expected of her, nor is it hoped that she will do such things. So, there is a difference between the woman's role at home, where she is almost the main person responsible, and outside the home in the social context. Where does this difference come from? And over the course of the past 55 years of changes, has this gap between the societal context and the family context shrunk? Or do you see it growing even wider? And these are perhaps the concepts you referred to in your poetic excerpts that you mentioned. We. And you said a little while ago that we are going backwards, regressing.

SAEEDA KHATER: Yes, true. The woman herself did not shrink. They made her shrink.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Who diminished her?

SAEEDA KHATER: Let me tell you. The matter has become tied to the idea that religion tells you to do such and such. Everything has become directed toward religion and religion. Religion is innocent of this accusation. Completely innocent, absolutely. Our Islamic faith in particular. Ever since historically, women bravely went out alongside men in various wars to treat the wounded and to defend. And among these remarkable women was Nusayba Bintkab, who defended like 12 men, as Prophet Muhammad mentioned.

Now, if you tell an Omani man or male that your daughter should join the army to fight for her country, he'll say, of course not. She was created for her home, her kitchen and her man, not for that purpose. But your religion did not say that. So why do you burden religion with what it cannot bear? The problem is that there is no real awareness of religion among women. Unfortunately, it's the educated ones, not the uneducated ones. The uneducated women realize that they should take their rights by force. The educated women, they say, no, I listen to this because this is how it is. And they immediately submit. Unfortunately, they immediately give in. But if we talk about our mothers and grandmothers, by today's prevailing standards, they were women at that time.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: That's true. By today's standards, it's true.

SAEEDA KHATER: They weren't considered women. It's true. A woman was a lioness. Truly, in every sense of the word, lioness. Now, if we call someone a woman is a lioness, they say she's masculine. Yes. The accusation is always ready. Because they say you're acting like a man or you're trying to make girls go astray and lose their traditions, customs and religion and, you know, make society fall apart. Society has in many ways fallen completely apart because of me.

You specifically asked me about the challenging days of your dear mother. When I eventually came back, we actually returned around the significant year of 1977. And of course, they absolutely didn't let me come back until I had successfully obtained my official certificate from the University. And in 83, the cultural club was opened. Of course, thanks to His Majesty's awareness. May God have mercy on him. Because of the importance he placed on knowledge and culture, this club was established early on 83. Only one woman entered. Just one woman. I was the one who entered. Do you know how many years I stayed alone? Guess. 16 years.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: 16 years in the management of the Cultural Club.

SAEEDA KHATER: In the Cultural Club. Not just in the management. With my entry, it was the first step for a woman to enter the Cultural Club.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Why exactly?

SAEEDA KHATER: Because no one was ready to go through what I went through. On the surface, but we often compare ourselves to our fathers. The typical Omani man, like my own uncle, for example, is a strong and respected figure. Our sheikh. The sheikh of our tribe, my father passed away. Otherwise, he would have been very happy. Because he was the one who. I owe this to him. When I entered, there were about 200 men. There was no way for a man to go to a club. There were no clubs, there were no theaters, there were no opportunities at all. So, this was the only open space for them.

They would all gather in this club. Alright. Did you face opposition from men? Did you face any harassment? I did. You can't imagine, sir. You got PhD, right? Hamid. On the way, Dr. Hamid. I found there was a lot of welcoming, a very warm welcome and pride. I mean, glory be to God. Everyone wanted to imitate their daughters to Imitate this. The question is why? Because the example that was set before them was not an example that was weak. You know what I mean by the word?

HAMED AL GHAITHI: A strong woman, a strong woman, capable.

SAEEDA KHATER: A capable woman. A woman who respects herself and others. Therefore, she is a role model that any father would be proud for his daughter to be like her.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: That's understandable, of course, it's something observed in Omani society. But one point that you mentioned, I think is an important point, Dr. Saida, is that educated women, I mean, are more inclined to give up the status of women, unlike uneducated women and semi educated women or women themselves.

SAEEDA KHATER: This, unfortunately, is what happened in our father's generation. They welcomed the educated woman; they were proud of her. The next generation, for example, my husband's generation, the generation after that, my husband's generation or my son's generation, they have different characteristics. Opposing ones.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Opposing ones. Okay, what about women? The generations of women. How. How does a woman see herself if she is educated?

SAEEDA KHATER: The woman also because she reads what he writes. The man, she usually says, I admire the man. You read to him, listen to him. Through religious programs, via university professor, through whatever. This is for everyone of all ages. It means they are in the formative years. Yeah, these are different. Very, very different then our fathers. No, they are respectful of women. Never as a woman. As a woman, I say, not as a woman. Yeah, the man wants to turn her into just one doesn't hear her voice. If he talks to her, it would be better if she didn't respond. If she doesn’t know how to respond, it's even better.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Is this. Is this phenomenon persisting in Oman or is it increasing?

SAEEDA KHATER: Unfortunately, it's increasing.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: It's increasing.

SAEEDA KHATER: It's increasing. Unfortunately.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: I agree with you. I mean, from my observations in the Omani society, you pointed out the generational change between the father's generation and the husband and son generations. And all of these indicate cultural phases. You worked at Sultan Qaboos University, and I believe it was one of the most important institutions that were established in Oman during that period. In 86.

SAEEDA KHATER: That's right.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: During that period, of course, you. You took on a very important position in the deanship of student affairs at that time. From a cultural perspective, in the Arab region, there was in the Middle east in general, a crisis. It was a crisis. Crisis. And the Islamists.

SAEEDA KHATER: That's right.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: So, the discourse was extremely conservative and fiercely protective of its conservatism, restrictive of the role of women in reality, even the role of men. I mean, even the role of men was molded the role of men into certain roles and specific patterns. But given your position at Sultan Qaboos University, I'm receiving the first batches of students. How did you see those cultural changes during that period in terms of the role of women in society? You are coming from a certain background, with a certain transparency, with a certain culture.

SAEEDA KHATER: Yes, yes.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: And then you have girls entering university at the age of 17 or 18, 17 years old, from different regions in Oman. And you see, I mean, in a modern education system, what happened during that period, the state's policy.

SAEEDA KHATER: On one side, on one side, honestly, I mean, I can't be unjust to the policy. In those years, the policy was, I mean, to create an Omani person, meaning a human being who is strong, meaning a human, whether male or female. And equal, Equal rights. I mean, doctor, look, now, the rights that used to be equal, where a man could get land and a female could get one, now not the case. Look, look, after how many years, where have we reached? I mean, so this process is expanding in all institutions, okay? At the university, the young girl just came. She really wanted to become something truly great. She wanted to be free. And especially, as you said, they came from different regions.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: That's right.

SAEEDA KHATER: They came from a tight grip. A grip, I mean, somewhat difficult social conditions. Most regions suddenly opened up to find herself walking, entering the classroom with her male classmate. I remember they sat together in one.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Room and they're all coming from different areas, from different tribes, from different cultural backgrounds.

SAEEDA KHATER: And most importantly, the concept of shame became exaggerated. I mean, suddenly shame became inflated. She was no longer, no longer the Bedouin woman, the horsewoman, the Bedouin, the strong woman, the tough mountain woman, the shepherdess who herds the sheep strong, the farmer who harvests her husband field and sells it. As you mentioned, you brought up your grandmother as an example. And that's a very successful example, a very successful one. And she stayed that way.

I mean, let me give you an example. In my hometown, it's tough. Women used to be dagger makers and makers of sheath for the dagger. Women. There were women like that. There was a woman, her husband passed away, you, see? I mean, from all social classes. Her husband was a fisherman. This husband passed away, okay? Should she go to perhaps beg a man for something? So and so. And the man. There are many greedy people and there are, I mean, a tax she has to pay. She took her husband's boat; she went out to sea with it. She caught the fish herself, and she sold the fish herself in the market. This is the. This Is now, nowadays, not today. I mean, less than. Less than 15 years ago, 10 years ago.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: At that time, from a cultural perspective, in the Arab region, there was in the Middle east in general, a crisis. It was a crisis. And the Islamists.

SAEEDA KHATER: That's right.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: So, the discourse was extremely conservative and fiercely protective of its conservatism, restrictive of the role of women. In reality, even the role of men, I mean, even the role of men was molded the role of men into certain roles and specific patterns. But given your position at Sultan Qaboos University and receiving the first batches of students, how did you see those cultural changes during that period? The changes from outside? The major cultural changes in the region which have affected the course of society?

SAEEDA KHATER: Of course.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: And on the roles, the roles of the genders, men and women. Yes. To what extent was the university's mission at that time? To shape an aware and capable person?

SAEEDA KHATER: That's right.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: An equal. To what extent do you think the institution was able to raise this generation? I mean, talking about the period when you were there, when you joined in 86 and when you left at the end of the 90s, was there any fluctuation in the university's ability to its mission, fulfilling its mission?

SAEEDA KHATER: Yes, there was a fluctuation, a big one too. And maybe as a result of this fluctuation, I left. I left by my own choice. No one made me leave. I. I handed in the paper, left and went home. This is proof that there were situations I couldn't handle, or there were changes that happened at the university that I couldn't adapt to. I couldn't handle them in the institution. In the institution. And it's an institution that's supposed to. It's the institution we're proud of. It's the institution that's supposed to, I mean, provide this society with graduates, a leading role in everything that benefits this society and helps it progress. Doctor, you know that our problem is that when it comes to imitation, I mean, sometimes we imitate without using our brains. When it comes to imitation, we always say there's a dominant civilization and another civilization that's less advanced.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: A receiving one.

SAEEDA KHATER: A receiving one. So, we have become after we used to be. We were the source. We were the people of civilization. We were the ones who influenced others. Now there are those who influence us. The Omani identity has been shaken. It has been shaken. Now you see that clothing in a certain country, my neighbor's, is better than what I wear. So, I must throw away my clothes and dress like them. Did the Omani woman Used to wear black all year round like them.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: From my personal experience with my grandmothers, never, never, never.

SAEEDA KHATER: The Omani dress was always colorful, beautiful and match the occasion. Even when I went to the farm, the clothing was also colorful, but different from the wedding attire. Like them.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: That's right.

SAEEDA KHATER: Or my home clothes, because I stay at home in them. So, it became for her. Today the Omani woman wears the same abaya, the same black, the same. Like the sadness. Even at weddings. Unfortunately, even at weddings. I mean, we have become a society that is negative. We just receive.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Okay, where are the means of immunity, cultural and intellectual immunity? I mean, where are the roles of intellectuals? Absent. But why?

SAEEDA KHATER: I'll tell you why. I mean, because the intellectual says one thing and does something else. This intellectual, when it comes to his wife, he tells her, wear the abaya before you go out.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: So, his role is just to passively receive.

SAEEDA KHATER: In fact, he is a founder of negativity.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: He is a founder of negativity?

SAEEDA KHATER: Of negativity. So, the role, the pioneering role, the enlightening role that should be played by the intellectual is almost nonexistent.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Almost nonexistent.

SAEEDA KHATER: Nonexistent. Absent.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: And this means we're not talking about one or two intellectuals: we're talking the situation as a whole.

SAEEDA KHATER: Most of us. Most of us. I couldn't include everyone. But if you tell him, come write about what was said regarding freedom. Oh, wonderful. This is means. He is unbeatable in what he does. He goes home.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: So, the means of defense and resilience, culturally and intellectually are almost absent, of course, also for, I mean, ideas that cross countries. I mean, the society might receive them drafted by institutions as policies. I mean, like you mentioned in your experience with the university, you left it, rejecting some. Oh, behaviors that occurred in the institution at that time.

SAEEDA KHATER: Not just from the student, of course.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Not from the student, no, because the.

SAEEDA KHATER: One who sets the policy is for me, not the student. So, I, since I was in a position to set the policy, I found that it did not suit me. So, I left it in protest.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: You left it in protest?

SAEEDA KHATER: Yeah. Yes.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: All right. So, for example, let's talk more broadly. We live in a region that is very turbulent in this part of the world. Every two or three years there is a war. There are discourses, major cultural ones that have changed your perspectives significantly. I mean, if we talk now, for example, about the impact of the Islamic awakening. But there were also nationalist discourses at one time, and we know that you were inclined toward nationalism. There were also sectarian discourses during certain periods in the region. Especially after the American invasion of Iraq, which ignited sectarian conflict in the region and beyond. So, we return again to the topic of identity and the formation of identity.

For example, as an Omani, I can talk about, say, if you ask me what defines your identity. But when we look at it on a societal level, in the midst of all the changes happening in the region, where does the Omani identity begin or end? Where does the conservative Islamic identity start? Or the sectarian identity, or the nationalist identity, or as we discussed earlier, the secular currents and others? Where do we see the intersections and the differences here? Of course, what we are talking about in Amman also applies, I think, to the rest of the Gulf countries.

SAEEDA KHATER: That's absolutely right. The fundamental difference with Omanis is not something to be praised, as if it's merely a matter of being male or female. Omanis, from their very foundational beginnings, tend to diligently educate themselves, to actively seek out knowledge, to genuinely love learning, and to deeply appreciate culture. So they are indeed people who, if they truly desire to, and if the official institution also genuinely wants, and this is a critically important point, I mean, the sincere commitment and dedication of the official institution can effectively create a truly aware and well informed person, someone who actively participates with them, with the government in the significant process of changing and.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Improving society, in our ever-changing society, in a truly collective and shared way.

SAEEDA KHATER:

Yes, aware, yes, of course, because if the government merely provides me with instructions as simple guidelines, that's truly not sufficient. But if society actively participates, and typically Omani society in those early days, let me tell you, the significant building and development of Oman.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: That's right, yes.

SAEEDA KHATER: In the early days, participation was very strong, and hands were always ready to push this society forward. Our fathers pushed us and our generation pushed as well. Then came the generations after us, some of us who brought it down to this.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: So now we are going to be in trouble. We are currently facing a significant predicament, a profound trouble in terms of, you could certainly say a pervasive lack of comprehensive awareness, or perhaps a considerable trouble stemming from the severely limited physical and conceptual space that is presently available, or even a deeply concerning trouble in precisely how the general, widely accepted image of what is truly desired or of genuine, meaningful ambition has regrettably become profoundly and extensively distorted over time.

SAEEDA KHATER: Of course, first and foremost, we absolutely have to express our sincere gratitude to the official institutions for not exerting such incredibly intense and overwhelming pressure as we unfortunately see in many other countries around the world. For example, just to provide a very simple and clear example, what is currently Happening right now in Egypt is truly exhausting, profoundly confusing, and deeply disturbing for everyone involved here in our situation, no matter what the circumstances. If the state genuinely perceives that a particular process or action will have a significantly negative impact on society as a whole, it thoughtfully steps back and becomes somewhat more lenient and understanding.

We certainly do not experience that kind of truly criminal and oppressive pressure that we regrettably observe in various other countries within the broader region, which frankly threatens the stability and well-being of the entire region. So, personally, I was not at all optimistic about the significant rise of this particular movement, especially the religious movement. By the way, I am religious myself. I am a graduate of Sharia and Islamic sciences and jurisprudence. I mean, all the paths of Sharia I have studied. And in the end, Arabic language is Arabic language. I know our religion does not call for us to become followers who just go wherever the crowd goes, left or right.

The Prophet said, none of you should be a blind follower. If people do good, you do good, and if they do wrong, you do wrong. This is the prophetic wording. It means we are prevented from becoming mere copies of each other. You are a human being. You have your own mind. And what distinguishes you is this mind, which makes you different from animals. Because of this skull, you will be held accountable. Animals are not held accountable because they are not given responsibility. You are responsible. So, you have your own path. Why should I just follow the religious person with a beard up to here and be afraid of him? If, for example, I go out looking like this, he will see me and send me back home. Why? Why is that? Why is.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: And of course, as an intellectual, did you inevitably have confrontations with some religious and political discourses?

SAEEDA KHATER: I see myself as the type of person who doesn't truly clash with society because I inherently know the inevitable outcome of such a direct confront is that my own horn will undoubtedly break. The truly important thing is whose horn ultimately breaks. There's a profound line of poetry that says, what exactly does it mean? It's like someone foolishly trying to strike a massive rock with his horn. It doesn't weaken the unyielding rock in the slightest, but it tragically breaks its own horn. I'm like a powerful ibex or a graceful gazelle with a remarkably strong horn, and I'm constantly and persistently butting heads with this immovable mountain rock. In the very end, the rock simply won't budge. And the vast mountain won't break from your persistent horn, but your own precious horn will certainly break.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Of course, especially I did not clash.

SAEEDA KHATER: I am against those women who clash with their communities, Dr. Because what happens with women confront their societies and I wrote my PhD thesis on this, on the alienation among women in the Gulf. Most women who clash with their communities, maybe 90 or even 99% of them end up withdrawing, becoming isolated and are negatively affected, experiencing frustration. I prefer to take my right by negotiating and finding understanding with my community.

If my community welcomes me, like when I entered the Cultural Club for the first time, I am proud of myself and I will continue and I will keep going. This is what has made me persist for six years without having another woman. The until one woman came and. But for me to clash with society and for you to be the man and I don't know what and for feminism and masculinity to become my goal and for all my writings to fall under feminism and I don't know what else, and for my writings to be about the body. In feminist writing, this hasn't taken us anywhere far.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: But doctor, if the fundamental clash is not adequately resolved and is simply left on the table, what are the essential means or effective tools readily available to the intellectual not just to eloquently express themselves, but also to actively bring about significant and lasting cultural change?

SAEEDA KHATER: The intellectual, whether male or female, the intellectual is not just a woman. I'm not talking about myself here. If I clash with my society, I won't gain anything. I'll inevitably end up as many alienated women in my PhD thesis, being marginalized. So now your question is very, very important. If we can't, what are the practical proposals? What should we do to effectively overcome this? Honestly, Dr. Hamad, this is indeed a big question from Al Akkad and his group. Up to the present day, I've seen that the intellectuals in Egypt are either the first sycophants or the first to give in. They are truly the intellectuals, the ones who give in. The ones who truly give in. The ones who ultimately give in.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: This is a disaster because the intellectual. A disaster?

SAEEDA KHATER: Absolutely.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: I mean, they profoundly shape public awareness. They actively push society forward in a meaningful way.

SAEEDA KHATER: They started to realize as if they suddenly grasped the truth that had been hidden from them or as if they suddenly woke up and said those who went to prison in large numbers because of their stances, there's no need for me to repeat the same tragedy. If I go along with what they want, that's better. And now, unfortunately, the nonintellectual has become more influential than the intellectual. The one who has the most impact on his society is now the non-Intellectual?

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Are you talking about the worker, the engineer or the doctor?

SAEEDA KHATER: We have previously discussed the individual who possesses a profound sense of awareness. And it is absolutely not necessary for such a person to explicitly declare I am Al Aqqad, or I am Taha Hussain and I am personally bringing forth the enlightenment and reform movement. No, that is simply not the case right now. If I were to attempt to initiate this significant enlightenment movement, for example, and it were to reflect negatively or adversely upon my own family, people have indeed started to carefully consider the well-being of their children as well.

This is primarily because, as I have previously explained to you, the official institution in its very essence desires nothing more than blind obedience and complete submission. This particular dynamic is precisely what has unfortunately rendered our societies as a collective whole, entirely submissive and perpetually descending to lower and lower states. From the days of Al Akkad and his group to now. I see that the intellectuals in Egypt are the first to cheer for this. The first who give in are the intellectuals.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: The intellectuals are the quitters. And this is a disaster because the intellectual, very much so. It's their role, I mean, to shape awareness, to push society forward.

SAEEDA KHATER: It's as if they have now realized the truth that was hidden from them. Or as if he suddenly woke up and said, look at all those who ended up in prison in large numbers because of their stances. There's no need for me to repeat the same tragedy if I just go along with what they want from me. And so unfortunately the nonintellectual has become more influential than the intellectual that is the most influential person in society is now the nonintellectual.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Are you talking about the worker, the engineer, the doctor?

SAEEDA KHATER: I'm talking about the conscious person who has awareness, doesn't necessarily say I am Al Akkad or I am Tahaa Hussain and I bring the enlightenment and reform movement. No, no, no, no. That's not the case right now. I will not engage in this. This enlightenment movement, for example, reflects negatively on my family. People have started to consider their children because as I told you, official institutions only want blind obedience and submission. This is what has made our Arab societies as a whole submissive and unable to rise. Just keep your head down.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Then in your view, the main problem is despotism.

SAEEDA KHATER: Despotism, despotism. Either I submit or I emigrate. Many people have emigrated. If I reject this, they say, even in Allah said, in what condition were you. I mean in the Quran, excuse me, I don't have it memorized. It says they were oppressed in the land. So, he said in what condition were you? Was not the earth of God vast enough for you to emigrate therein? Isn't that, right? Even in religion, you are oppressed. Oppressed. You don't have to become humiliated slaves as long as you are oppressed. Was not the earth of God vast enough for you to emigrate to it? I mean, the earth is vast, and a person can leave to wherever they wish.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Doctor, the picture you're presenting is rather bleak. We live in this region. With all these major changes, the, the Gaza war, the changes that have happened in the region, the American Iranian conflict recently may well bring further consequences. How do you see the future of the region? And what do you consider the key challenges we, the people of this region, are facing? I am not just talking about Oman, but about the region as a whole, especially with the ongoing tragedy in Gaza.

SAEEDA KHATER: Let me make the picture even darker. In the region, the Gulf Cooperation Council is a failure. There is no cooperation. Three are heading east, three are heading west, and one is different from the rest. And any cooperation or unified action should have clear goals that everyone commits to. So, the Gulf Cooperation Council is a complete failure. And I, I think it's better if it didn't exist. And the phrase our Gulf is one, our peace people are one has become a joke. That's one thing. On the Arab world level, the lifeless dead body called the Arab League is even more of a failure. And we as Arabs should withdraw from it and not give it a single riyal more. Because every single riyal is more deserved by every Arab citizen. We deserve it more. Instead of it going to a bunch of bureaucratic officials, it does nothing. It does absolutely nothing. It hasn't solved any problem. The Arab League, as far as the world is concerned, is the United Nations. Do you see any benefit from it? The United Nations and the Security Council. A single vote can block 300 votes with something ridiculous called a veto.

The whole world agrees that Gaza should be stopped. Take the war for example. Let's use Gaza as an example, because right now it's the clear image in people's minds. It's the burning issue, right or not? Everyone in the world agrees that the war should stop, but who wins a single veto vote? I call it Vimto. It's really like Vimto. A drink. Kids play with it and drink it. It's better nothing gets recorded and international resolutions are destroyed.

Do you see what's happening? Is this a humanitarian law or the law of the jungle? Of course it is the law of the jungle. Because the lion comes and behind him comes the tiger. Britain, for example, and then the hyena. And then the wolf comes after. And they all agree against the prey. So, this vast world that's spending money with employees and visits and the plains of this vast world, what's the point of going and wasting money for nothing? If this is the law of the jungle, then it's better. Whoever wants to prey on the victim, let them do it. There's no need for these 300 countries to come and pat the victim on the back. We're with you, we're here. Okay, but when have you ever done anything for me?

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Maybe when the party's over, but then it's over. All right. Regarding Oman, what do you see the main challenges facing Omani society in the coming period? I mean, your children's and grandchildren's generation.

SAEEDA KHATER: Honestly, I think yesterday we received some horrific pictures. Job seekers and the laid off. When the numbers keep increasing like this, this huge, chaotic situation, rather than decreasing, even if it were just by 5%, we're actually increasing by 50% every year, for example. So may God help us with the future. The challenges are very, very big.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Do you currently see any clear indicators right in front of you? Perhaps in your very own hands? Do you truly think these complex problems can be effectively solved? Do you still have hope for the future? I certainly do.

SAEEDA KHATER: If I had hope, I wouldn't have left my job. And I do not have hope. That's why no job. You have no job. I found people telling me you're crazy. Who would leave a position like that? I told them I'm the crazy one, the truly crazy one. Someone like me, yes, would leave such a position. I left it. Better to leave that than to lose myself. When I left my eldest son, how old was he? I can't quite remember. 11 years old, 10 years old? 9 years old? Honestly, he was younger than 11. He said to me, mom, leave while you're still healthy. Don't wait until you get heart problems, diabetes or high blood pressure.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: A child said that. May God protect you from diabetes, high blood pressure and all. My last question, Dr. Saida, the intellectuals, whether in Oman or in the region, what do you expect from them? What do you hope for? I mean, what do you hope for from the intellectuals in the midst of all these major challenges we're going through? What do you wish to see?

SAEEDA KHATER: Honestly, just so you can make me a bit optimistic, since I made things gloomy for you, I mean, it's clear that I brought you a gloomy outlook. Let me try to be a bit More optimistic. Our Omani youth are doing extremely well. Extremely well. If we compare them to many other Arab and Gulf nations especially, our youth are in great shape. If the state doesn't build them up, they build themselves up. And that's the most beautiful thing about them. If the state doesn't support them, they're the ones who take initiative. They work hard and earn their rights. I think you can see now that the intellectuals, the creative Omani, the Omani intellectual stands out everywhere. We have many examples. Honorable, very honorable indeed. And you are one of them.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Very kind of you, Doctor.

SAEEDA KHATER: Thinking well of others is nice, but I know this model very well. When I am convinced by what I'm saying. The Omani youth are ambitious and want to reach their goals, no matter the challenges. I overcome the first obstacle, all right? Then I see a second obstacle, then a tenth one, and I get past it too. This is proof of the inner resilience of the Omani person, the Omani individual. I feel very optimistic when I travel.

The Omani cultural scene is truly changing compared to 20 or 30 years ago. It's very different in every creative field, in all areas and in every field. That's right. Visual arts, poetry, photography, criticism. In the realm of photography, in the captivating world of theatre, in the rich tapestry of literature, in the compelling narratives of novels, in wherever you choose to look, you will consistently discover a truly distinct Omani excellence that genuinely lifts the spirit and inspires admiration. So, I can't. I mean. I mean, I don't want to discourage people any further.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: So, do you think that if the youth are empowered, we might witness a kind of momentum, a drive, a movement, Movement toward the better?

SAEEDA KHATER: Yes, there is momentum, and it's a beautiful kind of momentum. And people should keep pushing forward. A person should never stop striving. The one who stops is truly dead. The truly dead do not move. Right. But a young, vibrant person who possesses significant strength, both inner fortitude and outer strength, should actively compete with others. And truly, we emphatically say that in order to achieve great success and reach one's full potential, one must strive and pursue to get a medal or recognition from the state. It's wonderful. As long as the state cares about this, it's really great. This means that it has a positive outlook toward distinguished and creative individuals. Even in the sciences, by the way, we have young inventors at the university. We have young people who are different, inventive, and do many things, things that make Oman proud. We always say, Oman, may God grant it health and well-being to care for them a little more. May God grant it.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Dr. Said Al Khatar, thank you so much for this enriching conversation on Metta. We talked about the changes that have taken place in Oman since the 70s, the role of women, shifting identities and regional issues, and hope. God willing. There is always hope. God willing.

SAEEDA KHATER: We are optimistic. God willing.

HAMED AL GHAITHI: Thank you. Thank you very much, Dr. Saida.

SAEEDA KHATER: Thank you. And I hope to always see you forever. May God answer our prayers with that beautiful smile. God bless you. May God grant your health and wellness.